Isaiah 7 10-16 KJV bible.

10 ¶ Moreover the Lord spake again unto Ahaz, saying,

11 Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.

12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord.

13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

2 Nephi 17 10-17

10 Moreover, the Lord spake again unto Ahaz, saying:

11 Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God; ask it either in the depths, or in the heights above.

12 But Ahaz said: I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord.

13 And he said: Hear ye now, O house of David; is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign—Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and to choose the good.

16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

verse 14 in other translations

New International Version

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

New Living Translation

All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us').

English Standard Version

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

International Standard Version

"Therefore the LORD himself will give you a sign. Watch! The virgin is conceiving a child, and will give birth to a son, and his name will be called Immanuel.

NET Bible

For this reason the sovereign master himself will give you a confirming sign. Look, this young woman is about to conceive and will give birth to a son. You, young woman, will name him Immanuel.

Young's Literal Translation

Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel,

Swete's Septuagint

διὰ τοῦτο δώσει Κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον· ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ λήμψεται καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἐμμανουήλ·

therefore may the Lord give you a sign: behold, the virgin in the womb shall conceive and bear a son, and you shall call his name Immanuel.

Westminster Leningrad Codex

לָ֠כֵן יִתֵּ֨ן אֲדֹנָ֥י ה֛וּא לָכֶ֖ם אֹ֑ות הִנֵּ֣ה הָעַלְמָ֗ה הָרָה֙ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥את שְׁמֹ֖ו עִמָּ֥נוּ אֵֽל׃

Therefore let the Lord give you this sign: Behold, the virgin conceived and gave birth, and you called his name, our people, God:

WLC (Consonants Only) לכן יתן אדני הוא לכם אות הנה העלמה הרה וילדת בן וקראת שמו עמנו אל׃ Therefore, the Lord will give you a sign. Behold, the maiden conceived and gave birth to a son, and you called his name with us El:

Aleppo Codex יד לכן יתן אדני הוא לכם--אות  הנה העלמה הרה וילדת בן וקראת שמו עמנו אל Therefore the Lord will give you a hand--a sign that the young woman conceived and gave birth to a son and called his name Amno El

from http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/chapters_pg

left is the great isaiah scroll right is masoretic text version. Both translated into english.

for what it is worth here is the actual scroll

I am not really going to be able to make it out at all. the above on the left is the supposed translation though from Professor Peter Flint.

Interesting discussion from a messianic perspective.

It appears to me that at least with Mathew was going with the greek Septuagint version of the text. I don’t see any hebrew versions that would be definitive meaning a virgin will conceive. The youtube video seems to focus more on the virgin aspect of the hebrew alma instead of the context of the conceiving. I am not as interested in the virgin or non virgin aspect of the young women as i am with the aspect that Isaiah seems to be saying the young women is already pregnant and therefore could not be referring to a future conceiving.

Even then I am having a hard time understanding why the greek writers of the Septuagint would have interpreted it this way. Did they not understand it? Did they intentionally render it in the future tense? If so why? If we didn’t have the dead sea scroll version It would be a better argument. If there was just the Masoretic text we could argue more that the old hebrew may been future tense and the Masorites were wrong here. Maybe I am missing something here as well. It seems pretty clear that this shouldn’t be a prophetic verse about the distant future messiah. If it’s so obvious though why does every Christian see it?

Mathew needs old testament. I’ll need to double check, because i am not sure. I could be remembering it wrong. I think that’s the case though mostly because of this interpretation of the virgin birth and attributing it to Jesus. In Mathew 1 18-25 we have

18 ¶ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

So in 22 we have Mathew saying Mary was a virgin and with child of the Holy Ghost all because it was prophesied of earlier by the Lord through a Prophet. What is the Prophesy? It’s clearly coming from Isaiah 7.

Here we have Mathew understanding the verse in Isaiah to mean a virgin (specifically in the greek parthenos/παρθένος) where the hebrew word הָעַלְמָ֗ה (hā·‘al·māh) means young woman/maiden It doesn’t specifically mean virgin although it could. He seems to be more quoting from the greek version instead of the Hebrew. I still don’t see why he want’s to interpret this passage as a prophesy about the Messiah. It seems specifically referring to the events that are currently taking place in the time of Ahaz and Isaiah. However here we are. It also seems odd if Mathew understood the Hebrew he would feel the need to give us the interpretation of the word Emmanuel to greek. In the Hebrew the word is derived from two other words to form one meaning God with us. So it’s a transliteration of the word to sound out Emmanuel in Greek then the interpretation of it.

End result though for me is it makes more sense that this passage was referring specifically to the time of King Ahaz. Isaiah is simply saying that there is no need to worry about the armies surrounding him because by the time a woman who is already pregnant gives birth and the child is old enough to know right and wrong the armies will be gone.

If this is a prophesy meant to represent Christ why tell the King this. If it was really meant as a sign for people hundreds of years later. I suppose you could make the argument that prophesies are always multi meaning in nature. In this case it could have meant one thing to King Ahaz and another to later generations, but they didn’t see the relevance until after the event occurred so what good is it. It seems much simpler to say it means a thing at the time then later people interpret it different to be more meaningful to them.

I don’t really know what Jesus needs to be born a virgin. Why the supernatural and impossible. Even then It would mean he wasn’t of the house of David so other prophesies would fail right.

A side note that i think is interesting, but I have seen or heard of people being impregnated by aliens and then the baby vanishing before it’s born. Or at least that’s the claim. No hard evidence because why would there be, but in theory if there are Aliens and we want to call them God(s) and go through that whole line of thinking then maybe. I assume an advanced alien species could fertilize an embryo of a virgin and ‘abduct’ the baby before being born. I don’t think i have ever heard of any of these incidents going to term. The baby is always removed. I’ve never looked to closely and its all going to just be testimonies of people that are hard to verify anyway. In that same context though I don’t know why we are expected to believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, but every other witness that claims this is laughed out of the room and never taken seriously. Obviously it should be very difficult to convince someone that they gave birth to a baby and are a virgin. If you believe a virgin birth is possible why discount all the other testimonies.

BOM connections

The other issue with the virgin birth is LDS teaching also needs Mary to be a virgin.

1 Nephi 11:15

15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.

Alma 7:10

10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

So if this is a true translation from God then it needs to be a virgin. That implies the Septuagint is correct and the dead sea scrolls and Masoretic texts are then wrong.

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